Episode 106 that hunterriverpei.com’s just how to fix the Internet

Surveillance is always problematic, however it isn’t neutral—it is an ext often deployed in communities of shade than elsewhere. And surveillance an innovation isn’t objective, either—it often magnifies the biases of its users and also creators, affecting already-marginalized people far more heavily 보다 others. Matt Mitchell, founder the CryptoHarlem, has an exciting solution for helping drown the damage that pervasive surveillance has done to those who are many profoundly influenced by it. 

Join hunterriverpei.com’s Cindy Cohn and Danny O’Brien as they talk through Matt, that has functioned as a data journalist, a software engineer, a security researcher, a trainer, and also a hacker—and learn more about just how education, transparency, and also building trust can increase privacy and also safety for everyone. And also best that all, you gain to walk to a party when you’re act it.

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You can’t fight back against surveillance unless you acknowledge it. CryptoHarlem, i beg your pardon Matt Mitchell founded, gives workshops ~ above digital surveillance and also a an are for Black human being in Harlem, who are over policed and also heavily surveilled, come learn about digital security, encryption, privacy, cryptology tools, and also more. Matt talks v Cindy and also Danny around how life under pervasive surveillance dehumanizes us, why you need to meet civilization where they are to mobilize them, and how education is the very first step to protecting her privacy—and the privacy of a community. Yet overall, he reflects us just how fun and also exciting it deserve to be to help empower and also organize her community.

You can likewise find the MP3 the this episode on the web Archive.

In this episode you’ll learn about: 

Cryptoparties being organized by volunteers to educate people about what surveillance technology looks like, exactly how it works, and also who installedHow working within her own neighborhood can be really hunterriverpei.comective (and fun) way to push back versus surveillanceHow in history surveilled communities have borne the brunt that new, digital creates of surveillanceThe inhunterriverpei.comectiveness and also bias the much brand-new surveillance technology, and why the so tough to “surveill yourself to safety”Why and how heavily surveilled communities are taking back their privacy, occasionally using new technology The methods that ar Control of Police security (CCOPS) regulation can benefit communities by offering avenues to learn around and discuss surveillance technology before it’s installedHow security and digital privacy has actually improved, with brand-new options, settings, and also applications the offer more control end our virtual lives

Matt Mitchell is the founder that CryptoHarlem and a tech other for the develop program in ~ the Ford Foundation. Together a technology fellow in ~ the Ford Foundation, Mitchell establishes digital security training, technical assistance offerings, and safety and security measures for the foundation’s grantee partners. Mitchell has additionally worked together an live independence digital security/countersurveillance trainer because that media and also humanitarian-focused private security firms. His personal work concentrates on marginalized, aggressively monitored, over-policed populaces in the united States.  Previously, Mitchell worked as a data reporter at The new York Times and also a developer in ~ CNN, Time Inc, NewsOne/InteractiveOne/TVOne/RadioOne, AOL/Huffington Post, and also Essence Magazine. Critical year he to be selected together a WIRED 25, a list of scientists, technologists, and also artists working to make points better. In 2017 he to be selected as a evil Motherboard human being of The Year for his job-related protecting marginalized groups.


Surveillance Technologies:

CCOPS and also Community Action


Matt Mitchell: "Privacy is not secrecy. Privacy is saying, "I gained a door, I obtained a door so I could open it. I gained a room the no one knows about so I can invite the world who ns wanna share this with. And also I can say welcome, "We"re friend now. Ns wanna show you something i don"t share with everybody." That"s a beautiful thing however you only can do it when you"re offered the company to perform it. 

Cindy Cohn: That"s Matt Mitchell. He"s functioning in his ar to get world to understand an ext about your digital privacy and also security, and an ext importantly, exactly how they can take steps to safeguard it. Top top today"s episode of exactly how to settle the Internet, Matt will tell us just how he marshaled his ar Harlem in new York City. And he"ll help us think about how we can all reach out to those in ours own neighborhoods who could need a little help on understanding what their digital footprint looks like and how to make our virtual lives much more secure. I"m Cindy Cohn. 

Danny O’Brien: and I"m Danny O"Brien. Welcome to just how to deal with the Internet. A podcast the the digital Frontier Foundation. Today how to build a movement, one person, one checkbox, and one security setup at a time. 

Danny O’Brien: Matt Mitchell is someone who does plenty of things. He"s functioned as a data journalist, a software engineer, a security researcher, a trainer, a hacker... 

Cindy Cohn: And we were dazzling to give him an hunterriverpei.com Pioneer Award because that his work-related in his community. Matt founded Crypto Harlem, which hosts parties the teach people about protecting their digital privacy and also educates them about contemporary digital surveillance. Matt, welcome to exactly how to solve the Internet.

Matt Mitchell: Hey, thanks for having me. It"s good to it is in here. 

Cindy Cohn: When you accepted your award from hunterriverpei.com, you devoted it to Jelani Henry, deserve to you tell united state his story?

Matt Mitchell: Gelani thrived up in Harlem and one job the police concerned his door. They said, "We have actually reason come believe, by feather at social media, by looking in ~ people"s contacts and also their phones, that you were involved in a crime." A crime that Gelani did not commit. And also they took him from his home and also he did not see residence again because that 14 months. Invested that time in among the worst prisons in the world, Rikers Island in new York. And all of this is because of society media surveillance, something that happens every day in the inside city. 

Cindy Cohn: I think people who don’t live in locations like Harlem sometimes have a tough time visualizing the pervasive monitoring that happens there. Have the right to you, have the right to you provide us some of what you view in your community?

Matt Mitchell: you know, uh, life in the within city, all over in the unified States, in a location like Harlem, you"ll it is in surveilled from the minute you wake up, girlfriend know? A most folks live in some kind of federal government subsidized housing. There"s a lot of CCTV recordings of this properties "cause they"re technically federal government properties, and also there"s various rules that use to you, and what you deserve to do and what girlfriend can"t do since this is technically, like, state or partially state owned. Then you"ll walk out into your courtyard and also you"ll see these huge floodlights that space either solar powered or gasoline generator powered. And it looks type of favor a safety tower in a jail movie, right? wherein light is constantly shed and also shined top top you and yourself. The goes through your window. Civilization have, like, numerous layers the blackout shades. You see civilization just clip gun comforters to their home window at this suggest "cause it"s therefore bright. And that irradiate doesn"t turn off until, um, the sunlight rises, right? therefore you likewise have this, like, constant gaze, this constant watching.

And then, girlfriend know, if you were to go just for a walk outside the courtyard approximately the corner,if girlfriend look up, you"ll see there"s cameras, surveillance cameras in the lamps. Also, on that same edge there"ll be a crate that says residential or commercial property of NYPD, and also on it will certainly be countless different points from, uh, a camera that have the right to be uh, controlled and also turned and tweaked, a flat box which probably looks like practically like an accessibility point for a WiFi or something, but it"s in reality a microphone, it"s part of the shoot spotter system.

But because that this device to work, the microphones have to be ~ above the whole time, therefore they"re always listening. And also then as soon as they hear the wave kind or they enhance that pattern to what they think is a database of weapons being fired, climate it triggers or it"s claimed to occupational that way. And also so that"s another element that the monitoring that’s roughly you. 

Danny O’Brien: Right.

Matt Mitchell: Furthermore, you"ll have surveillance from, uh, the city level and also on the this firm level as well. A many the folks who own a bodega, or what us call, like, our little, like, smoke shop and candy shop and grocery stores, they"ll get recorded up in, this press from law enforcement, where it"s like, "Look, we desire you to share, not just the footage "cause someone was in here yesterday that matched the summary of a criminal or there to be a crime that was committed. Yet we want you to kind like, join our network that cameras so we have the right to pull video clip when require to," which has a lot of folks just walking around and just doing your thing.

Cindy Cohn: It really does take eyes, friend know, sort of mindful eyes come see every one of this surveillance since as girlfriend know, the public isn"t informed when this stuff is rolled out.

Matt Mitchell: I constantly say prefer we"re not, we"re not really versus all of this security tech. Carry it. Lug all this layers of security tech come every neighborhood, to the suburbs, you know, to downtown, to the tourist area. Lug it because on the day, everyone will certainly be increase in arms. On the day, everyone will certainly be like, "What is walking on? This is no the society I wanna live in." but unfortunately, the within city is like a Petri dish, it"s favor a beta test for a most this stuff. And also you know, there"s a the majority of commercial understand there. A firm might say, "Well, we"ll basically provide you the tech so we have the right to say year end year we"ve proven the this thing does something or it"s being provided by..." Like, if you speak it"s being used by Chicago, new York or LAPD, everyone desires that thing, nevertheless of even if it is it works. And also what we"ve checked out is that the shot spotters go off and also police room dispatched come an area expecting a firearm and also there"s brutality due to the fact that of that.

Danny O’Brien: as soon as it occurred in type of upper-class neighborhoods, there would certainly be a large discussion and also eventually it would be decided not to roll it out. And also then you watch the whole thing rollout elsewhere.

Matt Mitchell: Where communities have been ruled over to such large amounts of security generation after ~ generation. World come to the CryptoHarlem event. They"re like, "Yo, us took part pictures. What is this thing? What is the thing?" That"s, frequently a point that wake up in our meetings v folks. And we go with it, we"re like, "Well, this is this item of technology. This is who put it there, this is exactly how it works, this is exactly how it fails. We have this thing referred to as CompStat in brand-new York, i beg your pardon is police data you deserve to look back, like, every crime that"s been hunterriverpei.comectively filed together of yesterday, you recognize what I"m saying? for this reason if it doesn"t matter, like, crime in this country is walking down, laying out surveillance of the country is constantly going up. It"s not favor there"ll be a day where you"ll see world on that ladder, taking down automatic licence plate leader or a shooting spotter. Therefore it"s all about like, "Can we obtain ground? and then we"ll simply upgrade the tech?" It just looks ridiculous after a while yet no one ever before takes that away.

Danny O’Brien: so you started Crypto Harlem, what? roughly 2012? What was your first meeting like?

Matt Mitchell: I would certainly love to say it was like, "Nobody verified up, however we walk it at anyway." however it to be packed, very first meeting to be packed. I mean, i was shocked. I can barely gain in the room. It was human being on the sidewalk looking right into the building, right into the neighborhood center, you know what I"m saying? "Cause, girlfriend know, in part communities, you have actually to offer the totality nothing come hide argumen. However in the, you know, in these communities it"s like, "Oh, ns know. I already know that I"m being criminalized. My identity"s criminalized, my- my visibility is criminalized. And also my grandma"s existence was criminalized, and also her great-great grandma"s visibility was criminalized. Therefore it"s a background of surveillance, right? and also to to speak I have a remedy for this point that"s been plaguing you, human being will present up like you"re providing out medicine, right? So, you know, that"s just how that works when you do a Crypto party or anything choose this in these neighborhoods, a marginalized community, it"s in reality pretty easy. 

Danny O’Brien: carry out you have a remedy though? Is over there something that civilization can almost do in a case like that?

Matt Mitchell: Community organizers in the hood they"ll sit down v folks, they"ll be like, "Okay, listen, you"re a laborer, you"re a worker, you"re undocumented, every little thing your situation is. Let"s do a perform of what"s plaguing you, things that you would certainly change. Blue sky, dream a far better world, right? for you and also your kids." and you take the list, all these things that room bothering them, and then you discover what you know secretly it"s in reality a- simple win, it"s a fast fix, friend know, like, "And that pothole under the street," right? You walk to the nice neighborhoods, there"s no potholes, friend know? 

So, you simply teach folks like, "Look, this is just how you present up. This is exactly how you complain. This is just how you walk to this meeting. This is how the city ordinance is collection up," and then you patch that pothole. And with that win, lock will work-related for years on the hardest thing on that list. Girlfriend know, you have folks who have actually been subjugated to a vast amount that digital surveillance, we currently know the panopticon. We currently know what that feels like. As soon as they have actually a win and also they"re equipped with that, they will certainly fight forever. 

Danny O’Brien:  Right.

Cindy Cohn: Privacy yes, really isn"t about secrecy. It"s about control, right. And whether you have regulate or someone else has control, i think that"s precisely right. And when I"m hearing about your community, i beg your pardon is, friend don"t have to convince civilization that they"re gift surveilled or that, this stuff have the right to be used against them. In some methods it"s a challenging community to work-related in because there"s so much surveillance and it can feel overwhelming. However what i hear from you is in some means it"s one easier community to job-related with due to the fact that you don"t have to convince civilization that there"s a problem.

Matt Mitchell: friend don"t need to convince them. And, uh, due to the fact that there"s so many layers of surveillance, there"s an additive result that it"s for this reason ridiculously ... It"s- it"s Terminator II world, right? and also to- to just have any solution offered, that"s a ar that"s ready, so all set for this. There"s a history of security so they don"t need to be convinced around things, however also, it"s gotten so out of hand the it"s really tough to justify, right? It"s really hard for anyone to got their eyes open up to justify. If you just put the cameras out, you"re like, "Well, it"s not that countless cameras? They"re only here." and if you only put the microphones out, you"re like, "It"s not that countless microphones? They"re over here." yet when you check out everything, climate you"re like, "Okay, we went too far,"

Cindy Cohn: You in reality go out on the street and also talk to world and shot to encourage them to involved these parties. So can you call me some stories around how you"ve convinced human being to come in? 

Matt Mitchell: Yeah, definitely. Ns mean, the very first thing is, girlfriend know, you can have the hottest point in her mind, however no one"s walk to present up, so friend gotta be about it, like, "Hey, my life depends on it." so if you don"t gain 10 people in this room prefer this is your last day, you"re gonna operation around, you"re gonna take everybody, girlfriend gonna go v the bus, you"re gonna run v the subway. Like, that"s the enthusiasm you require to have when you"re starting a movement, and you also have come meet civilization where lock are. Therefore you have to contextualize solutions for folks, so... And also I"m like, "Hey, girlfriend know, pretty phone. What"s her favorite app?" and also they"ll it is in like, "Oh, I favor this dating app," let"s say. So you"re like, "Oh, okay, cool. You know, did you know that civilization can just find you, any, you know, anywhere you are, like, down to the second, like, under to, like, a split step away for you with that app?" and also you"re like, "What?" and also then you"ll be like, "Yeah, Kaspersky walk this study. Let me present you this short article real quick." and then they"re like, "Damn," right? and like, "How do I stop that?" I"m like, "Oh, simply turn the setting off." and also they"re like, "Whoa." and then you"re like, "Hey, I, we got an ext of these come through next week, this is the spot." and people will show up due to the fact that that"s exactly how easy it have the right to be if girlfriend meet people where lock are, whereby their clues of pains are, right? 

Cindy Cohn: We speak a lot about your work in helping world with their technologies, yet you"re likewise been help a little bit with policies and laws together well. 

Matt Mitchell: ns was involved with this thing referred to as C Cops earlier in the day, which was ar Control of end Police Surveillance. With that project, it was like, "Look, we should at the very least talk about this stuff." Oftentimes, regulation enforcement will certainly say, "Well, we don"t wanna re-superstructure the info "cause it offers upper hand to criminals." Well, girlfriend know, as soon as the French to be like, "Why are y"all measure up heads? You must be using this thing dubbed fingerprints, it"s a brand-new technology earlier in the day." Well, we all recognize that there"s a thing referred to as a fingerprint and you leaving it, it doesn"t protect against you from getting captured with their fingerprints, right? It"s just this is the science, we recognize it. With a the majority of this new technology, it"s no well researched. The hunterriverpei.comicacy is questionable, and also it"s secret, right? It"s secret. Therefore we"re like, "Look, simply tell us about it. Let"s look in ~ the civil liberty, privacy and other problems that could come indigenous it and also let"s number out what we have the right to do to minimize that. You"re gonna use it anyway, you might also just in ~ least provide us that "cause it"s our money. It"s our taxpayer money or it"s civil asset forfeiture wherein you"re literally avoiding people and also taking their money to buy ingredient to clock them with, which is totally messed up."

Now, in new York, we ended up having something that"s called the write-up Act, it"s a Public monitor of surveillance Technology. Yet the NYPD has actually been for this reason reticent to lay out exactly what they"re using. But even what castle have offered us is psychic blowing . Like, i was like, "Okay, we have x-ray vans, the drive around, and also can watch through buildings to clock people." Like, "What? How plenty of of this things? as soon as do we acquire this like, and they"re, like, "We won"t, we"re only gonna usage it in case of terrorism," right? castle said, "We have drones and also the drones will just be supplied by the state police, right? you know, we usage helicopters come look at web traffic accidents, We"re just gonna use drones? It"s cheaper and safer." climate it"s like, "Okay, and also maybe to assist during if who has gained Dementia, they"re older, they gain lost." and also then it"s like, "Oh, perhaps it"s for the children. Probably it"s and then following thing you know, NYPD is just flying drones around.”

Danny O’Brien: “How to settle the Internet” is sustained by The Alfred P. Sloan Foundation"s routine in Public understanding of Science. Enriching people’s resides through a keener evaluation of our increasingly technological world and portraying the complex humanity that scientists, engineers, and mathematicians. 

Danny O’Brien: We"ve speak a lot around how modern technology can really injury people"s privacy and security. Is over there any way in this kind of situation that you deserve to use modern technology to help people?

Matt Mitchell: Yeah. I mean, ns love technology. That"s why I acquired into this game, right? So as a hacker, I would certainly say prefer if you look at the apps that ns tell people to use, they"re all tech that was made by people, right? i think what we really need though is an innovation that"s developed and created by civilization who are directly affected by it. So people always talk around Signal, which is dope, right? It"s choose the gold conventional of encryption but, friend know, homie came from a tech agency and he not about this life, this stuff didn"t really take place to him, and look what that made. Therefore imagine what the next person who actually is like, "Hey, i wanna solve this for what"s walking on v my community, what"s walk on what ns see, native the philosophy of my mosque or mine street corner or my teenage runaway center," or whatever, you know what I"m saying? We need to be able to support those technologies. A most times, they"re open resource technologies. A the majority of times, there"s human being who, girlfriend know, who offer grants to assistance that stuff. And also I think favor that- that"s the win ideal there. Anybody, you can literally take it something that"s designed for you to consume technology all day prefer a cell phone phone, with black and brown folks over index on, we got mad glittered the end phones, you recognize what I"m saying? If there"s no keyboard on it, girlfriend can"t write code top top that, but you can actually now program on this things. So I"ve taught folks like, "Yo, let"s take a look in ~ this Python, let"s look at this algorithmic prejudice on your phone," we did it. It"s not the many fun point in the world, yet you can do it. And, ns mean, as soon as you"re time rich and the security is on you, i think that"s the future, is like building tech solutions and hacking our means out the these technology problems, right? Wonderful. 

Cindy Cohn: Oh, and also I additionally really love the idea here that, like, us don"t require one killer product. We require a million killer products due to the fact that every neighborhood is different. There are some things everybody needs. I absolutely would placed encryption on that list, however how the gets deployed might come up in a million ways, depending upon what the neighborhoods need. And that we shouldn"t be thinking of a one size fits every killer app, we have to be thinking about a whole universe of tools that people are empowered to build themselves. 

Matt Mitchell: ns feel, like, directly impacted communities, they"re going to settle their own problems and they don"t really require anyone to come save them. They simply need the tools, they require the resources. Perhaps you need to know just how to- just how to exactly write that code or perform that thing, you know what I"m saying? Um, so yeah, like, the Glover facility is this clues in Oakland, tiny homies just coming in and coding VR. Like, it"s amazing, right? therefore like, friend know, us need an ext of that.

Danny O’Brien: There"s one more element the this, which is. Friend know, building capacity in ~ the community of educating people around how the modern technology works for this reason that civilization can understand better how they"re being impacted and just how to reduce it too. Right. It"s is, is that, is that part of her mission? 

Matt Mitchell: This stuff is serious hidden, right? So, um, and also there space allies in weird places. Like, us got human being who came in, like, "Hey, I work at the precinct down the street. This is for this reason messed up. Ns gotta call you, like, something needs to be done. Blah, blah, blah," right? and or will certainly be like, "Yo, here"s a tweet. Like, y"all view this? Why is over there a dog walking into this housing projects behind these cops? prefer what"s this point too, blah, blah, blah.” It"s a robot. Therefore we"ll research study it. We"ll look into it. We"ll speak to world like, this is what this is. This is how it works. But without action, why, You"re just, girlfriend know, you"re simply scaring people, right? Your very first time you walk to a dentist, they don"t show you videos of civilization with, like, progressed gum disease. Friend know, when you walk to the physician talking around your health, lock don"t phone call you about illnesses you can do nothing about that save the medical professional up in ~ night. No, they don"t. So us don"t perform that either. We talk, we keep it hopeful, we save it actionable, and people desire that message, right?

But we likewise are realistic, and also we map it come there"s plenty of ways to stop these things. We have to be fighting ~ above every single front, right? If you"re someone who"d litter a party in her living room and also say, "Look, oh, we should know around this," perform that. If you"re someone that would, you know, litter a ballot in a box and vote against something, carry out that. So, like, we"re simply gonna lay the end every actual thing and we"re not gonna phone call you just how to safeguard yourself, your family, your community or anything favor that, right? 

So i think that"s a blog post that most world don"t typically get. They obtain told this type of one means message, right? and it doesn"t constantly make feeling for them since of what they"re handle with, the is the path. And then real adjust actually happens, and also that"s the surprising thing.

I had someone questioning me, like, "Aren"t y"all just sticking your finger in a dam? and also then you"re sticking her finger in another dam? and also then you"re sticking her tongue, in your nose, you"re make the hunterriverpei.comorts to just stop this flood from happening?" and also I"m like, "Yeah, welcome to being black in America. Like, that"s just how we solve all ours stuff," you recognize what I"m saying? Like, it has to be this way, in that space, you have the right to raise a child. In the space, you deserve to go to college. In that an are of just a tiny freedom and also safety, girlfriend can much better yourself. And also that"s what we"re about. We"re about winning v those margins.

Cindy Cohn: That"s great. Hey, do you have a favorite story of somebody that you kind of worked with v Crypto Harlem and how you kind of witnessed the light go off and, and also saw them sort of take manage over things?

Matt Mitchell: Oh, yeah, yeah, the happens all the moment actually, but, Yeah, I obtained this one story, right? you know, there to be this young homie that came in and I was like, "Are you even lost?" Like, friend know, probably this person was in the wrong place and, so he reflects up and also he- the does this entirety thing. That goes and checks the out, he comes earlier again. He speak to me afterwards. We... There"s a place next come the spot Harlem service Alliance wherein we have actually this, the neighborhood center, i beg your pardon is top top the edge of Malcolm X and- and Martin Luther King, i m sorry is pretty poetic and also cool, but it wasn"t- i didn"t also decide that. And next door, this place referred to as Harlem Shake, us usually just break bread and I"ll just buy part fries and also just talk to human being "cause girlfriend really... After the event, civilization wanna process and talk. And also he had actually so lot to say and I was like, "Well, examine out this video. Inspect out the..." we have a many checklists and also one pagers. And also he walk through everything and, um, he to be like, "Hey, man. I wanna do more." We had this thing referred to as the Glass Room that was in San Francisco in ~ one point, but it to be in brand-new York. And he finished up working on- in the Glass Room as one of the ingeniouses there. We had actually this totality setup, that looked like digital store however is really talking about surveillance. And also he came to be one that the most, like, passionate anti surveillance speakers on this issue. 

And then he was like, "Hey, um, i think ns might shot to use for this job." and also he used for this job at a technology spot and also he obtained this job and also it"s like, girlfriend know, this is a brother from Harlem, you recognize what I"m saying? Every time I watch a Crypto Harlem video clip or picture, he"s in that background. And also he writes me, he"s simply like, "You changed my life. You changed my family"s life. You changed my friend"s life." and he"s simply like, you know, that"s what"s up. We require the younger, cooler, following version of me, you understand what I"m saying? I want the, like, girlfriend know... Wha, everyone they are out there, you understand what I"m saying, or- or she or that is the end there, you know, we need that, like, cyberpunk Afro-futuristic, baby matt to come up, you know? So i wanna check out that. And that"s just one story. I mean, I could tell friend more. 

Another point that us wanna execute is, which us think is fairly important, is lug it earlier to the people. So if we obtain a donation, if we obtain opportunity, we carry it ago to the people. So I"m like, "Listen, if... How"s the gonna watch if I"m telling you this stuff?" but reality is, friend know, you, possibly you require money, maybe you require a project opportunity, maybe you require some sort of thing. For this reason we constantly make sure, we execute that, you recognize what I"m saying? Like, another thing we execute is we teach folks cyber defense stuff on a course to acquire certified since there"s an ext jobs than civilization in that space. It"s relevant because there reaches a point where you need to, like, know how to read code, to uncover the bias in the thing, you recognize what I"m saying? and like, "I might do that." and I"m like, "You might do that too, permit me present you just how to carry out that."We need to know high level cyber defense stuff, acquire your CompTIA certifi... You know, protection plus certification, therefore you can understand exactly how to push ago and have actually that authority. People will look in ~ you, they will certainly underestimate you based on your identity, therefore you need to come up with this stuff. 

Cindy Cohn: That"s such a vital thing around building a movement, right? Is the you"re, you know, you"re not just treating these world as the spectators, right? favor they"re simply watching a show, that"s around digital security. You"re bringing castle in, you"re supporting them. You"re structure the type of, um, network and also community. And also you know, we"ve talked a lot about Harlem and your residence communities, but I additionally know the you, girlfriend think a lot around how to, exactly how to had actually to, had actually to execute this kind of organizing and also communities that space not at all, like the community that you come from, areas that space rural or the are an ext distributed. And can you speak a small bit about that?

Matt Mitchell:  I operated globally, friend know, I operated in personal security, I functioned for non-profits. I operated for NGOs, you understand what I"m saying? And, girlfriend know, whoever is on the margins might look differently, yet the treatment"s the same and the playbook"s the same. Therefore you can be prefer an country Russian in Estonia, right? You might be in a ar where i can"t also tell, I"m like, "Yo, who... What"s the difference between this Albanian brother here and also this human being there "cause, like, girlfriend know... Or the German and also this German the you"re telling me it"s, it"s a class different." but then you"ll conveniently see that, "Oh, that community has an ext surveillance since I don"t to trust you. I don"t to trust you. I won"t ask. Ns will uncover out by watching, by surveilling," right?

What you look like and also what the ar look like could be different yet how this rolls the end is painfully, obviously an extremely the same. And also therefore, the problems we deserve to use to organize and push back versus it room equally the same. So, you recognize what? It works in our favor too "cause they can use the exact same playbook come hurt, we might use the very same playbook to succeed and also win and also help. 

If friend live in the united States, in a rural neighborhood, in a landscape area, there"s a the majority of farmlands, a lot- No- not a many opportunity. Native the price of just getting on the web is- is unfair, there"s not also equity there, right? Your options and- and also choices room not fair, right? and also when girlfriend speak to people, i think it"s around that common ground, and also that"s how you construct a nationwide movement, right? but I,love working in the inside city since I figure like, "Look, if we might stop that there, we can keep all these pains from being competent by much bigger numbers of humans."

Danny O’Brien: Yeah. No community is, is, is monolithic. Right? And, and also I understand that in situations and places where civilization suffer native a most crime, i m sorry is whereby the an initial argument around this kind of pervasive surveillance take place. There"s a lot of world who, who live there, who, who desires some aid and, and also see surveillance as a solution, right? quite than a problem. The they"re an ext scared of the crime than they room of the potential the the technology. What"s your means of, of interacting and also bringing them into this discussion. 

Matt Mitchell: Well ns think it"s about, are afraid is offered as a tactic. You know, obviously, her rational mind and also your emotionally mind is a constant battle, right? and also if you"re in a moment where you"re panicked and you"re stressed and also you"re just reacting struggle or flight like that- that animal trying to just survive, that"s the moment where you"re no making the finest choices, you know? therefore if I just tell friend to carry out some basic math, one add to one is two, two plus 2 is four, you start using your rational mind, friend start obtaining outta that place. So, that"s what we try to do. We try to present up and just it is in like, and respect the fear, right? for example, look at the eastern communities, right? With asian hate. People won"t even contact a hate crime, a hate crime. It"s therefore obvious, right? I need to respect, this is a reality right? and you work-related with the world who room trusted in that community, if ns wanna talk to the Korean ar in Queens, a the majority of folks room religious, therefore I should go come the korean church, right? A the majority of folks room gamers, I have to go to the Korean web cafe. I gotta uncover folks who, girlfriend know, um, represent the community, not simply as in literally, like, determine like, "Yo, I"m from here, this is mine neighborhood," but additionally the means they stand up in the community, right? They"re the many popular, uh, Cos player or whatever, you know what I"m saying? therefore you bring them in and, um, the is her entry suggest to fighting versus fear due to the fact that that level the trust, the level of friendship, that level of, like, "I share your pain, ns share your- the history of surveillance that occurred to you. Ns share do the hunterriverpei.comorts to do you safer, that doesn"t desire a much safer day? that doesn"t wanna safer street for your kid? everyone does, right?

Matt Mitchell: So and also then explaining that these things they"re actually dangerous, they"re no safe. That"s the kicker. And also that"s what walk it for folks because all of these technologies come v a pro and also a con prefer every tech, right? Every tech has a little positive or negative, but surveillance tech, the negative is killer. The an unfavorable is so negative that as soon as you break it down, nobody desires to go near it.

Cindy Cohn: If we"ve, if we"ve gotten a take care of on this stuff and also we. You know, shrunk security to the limited place that it candlestick to have actually in our society. How, exactly how does the look from wherein you sit? 

Matt Mitchell: I"m a dreamer, I"m a blue sky person, so I"m a, 100% abolitionist. Like, zero surveillance everywhere, right? surveillance has always been together a tool to pains people, so... Yet I think the looks like little things, you know? I likewise believe in celebrating every victory that comes from the neighborhood organizer in me, friend know? So, you know, like, as soon as I open up my phone and there"s a setups area and also it states Privacy, like, the wasn"t over there before. I"m an old institution nerd, there was no defense settings before. That"s a win. And the more settings in there, each line they include is a win. And, friend know, like, when world are like, "Oh, watch this camera up here? woo, boo," whatever, right? That"s a win, right?

Matt Mitchell: Every pet wants to be free, right? Every human being being desires to be free. Every kid wants to be loved. Every these things, surveillance the opposite of, therefore you recognize what I"m saying? ns think, like, what"s the future look at like? No cameras, no sensors, no one of this stuff on the corner, a tiny bit an ext trust, little more acceptance that modern technology can"t defend us from the things that us created, the evil points that we"ve created. 

Cindy Cohn: The stories just keep coming. You"re right. Girlfriend know, every job it gets clearer and clearer. Um, and, and now us need, you know, even if it is it"s civilization in the ballot box or civilization on the plan side, or civilization who build the modern technologies decide, Hey, I"m not going come be component of this.

Matt Mitchell: In some components of the world, we watch protests wherein they"re simply like, "Hey, the ham- the hammer and that camera have to meet, you know, they require to acquire lunch together." so , girlfriend know, like, whatever it takes. And also I wanna view it excellent the right method and i wanna check out it done v policy and through law due to the fact that that"s the finest thing. Like, civil legal rights taught united state that, right? as soon as you have actually the laws, they might not be respected today, yet those are what you stand on to adjust the future tomorrow.

Danny O’Brien: Matt Mitchell. Thanks very much.

Matt Mitchell: say thanks to you. 

Cindy Cohn: That to be terrific. And also just therefore inspiring. I really evaluate that. Matt really just took us on a walk through his neighborhood to present us all the surveillance. I mean, it was chilling and of food it simply drives residence how marginalized neighborhoods are disproportionately targeted by. I did purchase a surveillance. And I type of evaluate the silver- lining the that, which is the he doesn"t have to convince his community. That monitoring is a bad thing. They currently know it and also they recognize it native generations. 

Danny O’Brien: Yeah, monitoring can regularly be so kind of out of vision out that mind. It"s it"s, it"s this strange contradiction whereby it i do not care invisible just as it"s make you clearly shows to anyone is the end there, spying on you. Those walks just as a practical ar organizing method those favor walks and also tours. I recognize Oakland privacy does this of simply pointing out where the cameras are very hunterriverpei.comective. The thing that friend take away from is the class that ns think we all learned is that fear just blocks learning, right? It just paralyzes you. And what you have to do is, is you should respect the fear, or you require to recognize that civilization often involved you out of a fear and concern, however you desire to eliminate that fear and also then include a historical lens that provides them know why this is happening and gives castle the possibility that things can change.

Cindy Cohn: I think that the thing that really shines with in this is that, friend know, Matt"s not just teaching security- he’s building a movement. He"s empowering people. That doesn"t do security training together if world are simply passive listener or, or students. That he"s really functioning on giving people the tools they require to protect themselves, yet also transforming themselves right into leaders. Including, especially because this is around cybersecurity. Ns mean, human being having genuine careers and also the capability to feeding their family from this story. Ns mean, that"s exactly how you construct a durable movement. 

Danny O’Brien: And ns think the builds top top the idea that modern technology isn"t simply an adversary here. The can additionally be component of the solution. It can likewise be one of the tools that you use to solve things. And I love the idea that the ultimate solutions are going to be developed by the neighborhoods who are affected by them. 

Cindy Cohn: Yes. I really love his version of the future once we acquire it right. Not only that, the every tiny community is walk to construct the technology that lock need, since they"re the ones influenced by it. They"re the ones that ought to build the modern technology that finest serves them. Right. But likewise again top top the movement side, girlfriend know, recognizing that small steps issue that we have actually victories every solitary day and that us celebrate those victories. And then of course the bigger irreversible vision, you know, ultimately living in a world where we realize that we cannot surveil ourselves to safety. That"s a people I want to live in.

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Danny O’Brien: Me too. Well, that"s it for this main on how to settle the Internet, inspect out the notes on this episode for several of the sources Matt and Crypto Harlem built and recommend for this reason you deserve to learn an ext about your digital security or happen it onto someone that you know. 

Cindy Cohn: Thanks come our guest, Matt Mitchell because that sharing his optimism and vision for a future with much less surveillance and more humanity.

Danny O’Brien: If you like what girlfriend hear, follow united state on her favourite podcast player. We’ve acquired lot’s more episodes in keep with smart civilization who will certainly tell you just how to deal with the internet. 

Nat Keefe and also Reed Mathis of to win Mower do the music for this podcast, with additional music and sounds supplied under an innovative commons licence native CCMixter. Friend can discover the credits because that each the the musicians and also links to the music in our illustration notes. Thanks again because that joining us, if you have any kind of feedback top top this episode, please email podcast